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Senate Floor: BANKRUPTCY AMENDMENTS ACT OF 1993

  • John F. Kerry
    Person
  • Joseph I. Lieberman
    Person
  • John Warner
    Person
  • Joe Biden
    Person
  • William Cohen
    Person
  • Bob Dole
    Person
  • Mitch McConnell
    Person
  • Carl Levin
    Person
  • Jesse Helms
    Person
  • Slade Gorton
    Person
  • John McCain
    Person
  • Connie Mack III
    Person
  • Russ Feingold
    Person
  • Claiborne Pell
    Person
  • The Presiding Officer
    Person
  • Robert Byrd
    Person
Unknown

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, I send an amendment to the desk. 6

The Presiding Officer

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The PRESIDING OFFICER. 8

Joseph I. Lieberman

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Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that the reading of the amendment be dispensed with. 13

The Presiding Officer

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The PRESIDING OFFICER. 15

Bob Dole

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Mr. President, I send an amendment in the second degree to the desk. 27

The Presiding Officer

Unknown
The PRESIDING OFFICER. 29

Bob Dole

Unknown
Mr. President, I ask unanimous consent that the reading of the amendment be dispensed with. 34

The Presiding Officer

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The PRESIDING OFFICER. 36

Bob Dole

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Mr. President, there will be additional cosponsors. I want to thank my colleague from Connecticut for his continuing support. We have been working together in this and other foreign policy areas. I certainly appreciate his willingness to make this bipartisan. There are not any politics in this. The last vote we had on this, I think, was 87 to 9. The problem with the nine, I think, is that they had some fears about what might happen. So we have added one paragraph where we make it very clear: 48

Bob Dole

Unknown
We think we have taken care of that concern. 50

Bob Dole

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I also ask that Senator McConnell be added as an original cosponsor. 51

Bob Dole

Unknown
Mr. President, yesterday the President announced a new initiative to broaden the use of NATO air power to protect United States declared safe havens in Bosnia. In my view, such a move is welcome and long overdue. However, the President's initiative did not include an effort to lift the arms embargo against the Bosnians. 52

Bob Dole

Unknown
President Clinton said he favored lifting the arms embargo, but did not believe our allies would support such a move. Nothing will change unless America takes the lead, and that is why I am offering, with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle, legislation to lift the embargo today. 53

Bob Dole

Unknown
I might add, the President said he was "encouraged" by the support in Congress for lifting the embargo. I believe this will further encourage the President and strengthen his hand when he talks with the French, the British, the Russians -- whoever -- because Congress does have a role to play. Hopefully, this will be helpful to the President. 54

Bob Dole

Unknown
We have already gone on record, as I said earlier, by an almost unanimous vote, 87 to 9, in support of lifting the arms embargo -- not just the U.N. embargo -- but unilaterally lifting the U.S. embargo. If allies want to go along, it should be on a unilateral basis. We adopted a sense-of-the-Senate amendment after considerable debate. It seems to me that now is the time to strengthen the President's hand by letting the British, the French, and the Russians, who have objected to lifting the embargo in Bosnia, know that the U.S. Congress fully supports going it alone, if necessary, because this embargo has no legal basis and is unjust. 55

Bob Dole

Unknown
Administration officials have said that the United States should not act unilaterally because such action could unravel support for other U.N. embargoes, such as that against Iraq. 56

Bob Dole

Unknown
Mr. President, the arms embargo against Bosnia is not analogous to the embargo against Iraq. 57

Bob Dole

Unknown
First, this arms embargo was established against Yugoslavia, a country that no longer exists. Second, extending the arms embargo to Bosnia violates Bosnia's fundamental right to self-defense, a right that is incorporated in article 51 of the U.N. Charter. 58

Bob Dole

Unknown
And finally, aggression was waged against Bosnia, while Iraq was the aggressor against Kuwait. The arms embargo against Bosnia, unlike the legal embargoes against Iraq, Serbia or Libya, is illegal, in addition to being unjust. 59

Bob Dole

Unknown
So I introduce the amendment which goes further than my earlier amendment. It mandates termination -- it is only a sense of the Senate though -- of the United States arms embargo against Bosnia. The amendment simply states the President shall terminate the U.S. arms embargo of the Bosnia Government upon receipt from that Government of a request for assistance in exercising its right of self-defense under article 51 of the U.N. Charter. This language is taken from S. 1044, a bill I introduced -- again, with the distinguished Senator from Connecticut [Mr. Lieberman] -- last year. And, of course, I am pleased we are working together today along with others of my colleagues. 60

Bob Dole

Unknown
In addition to that, the amendment prohibits the enforcement of the U.N. embargo against Bosnia. The amendment also includes a provision which I previously read so nobody has any misunderstanding. We are not talking about troops. We are not talking about somebody going there for training purposes or to get equipment into any area in Bosnia. 61

Bob Dole

Unknown
So I think there are certainly many of us who have grave concerns about deployment of U.S. ground forces even after, if a peace agreement is reached. I think many of us are going to have concerns because it appears to this Senator -- maybe I can be convinced otherwise -- what we are doing is enforcing a peace, lining up with the Serbs to enforce a peace where they get to retain the territory they have taken, 70 percent of the independent nation of Bosnia, and we are going to be in a position, in my view, of lining up with the Serbs to make certain that none of that territory slips away. 62

Bob Dole

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I think the best way to ensure that we are not going to commit U.S. ground forces is to lift the embargo and give them an opportunity to defend themselves. 63

Bob Dole

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For 2 years now, the Bosnians have been unable to defend their citizens against the destruction and slaughter that has come to be known as ethnic cleansing. So officials of the Bosnian Government have been forced to plead with the international community for the protection of their people. 64

Bob Dole

Unknown
Yesterday, I received a letter from the Bosnian Prime Minister Haris Silajdzic, in which he said: 65

Bob Dole

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The Bosnian Vice President, Mr. Ejup Ganic, was in my office yesterday, and he emphasized the point when I met with him. He said the tragic situation in Gorazde may not have occurred had the Bosnians had antitank and other defensive weapons. He said, "We have the men but not the arms." And in my view it is not our place to deny the freedom- seeking Bosnians the right to self-defense. 67

Bob Dole

Unknown
I also asked Mr. Ganic, Is it too late? Would it make any difference at this point whether or not we lifted the arms embargo? The answer, he said, was yes. It is pretty hard to fight off a tank with a rifle, but if you had antitank weapons, you could have a pretty solid defense. 68

Bob Dole

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So, Mr. President, the President suggested if he could not convince the Serbs to halt their aggression and come to the negotiating table, that the allies might be persuaded to change their mind, and I hope that is the case. Why wait any longer? The war on Bosnia has gone on for 2 years now, and how much longer must the Bosnians wait to exercise their right to self-defense and how many more do we kill each day? 69

Bob Dole

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Yesterday, one incident happened -- the Bosnian Serbs shelled an emergency room in a hospital killing 10 patients. How many more chances are we going to give Bosnian Serbs, who already occupy -- I said 70 percent earlier -- I think it is closer to 75 percent of Bosnia? And when is the international community going to abandon its neocolonial approach in which the world decides what is right for Bosnia and the Bosnians have no say at all? 70

Bob Dole

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I think it is time to try to lead our allies and persuade our allies to the right position, a position that President Clinton supports, and that is lifting the arms embargo on Bosnia. I believe a vote in favor of this amendment will strengthen the President's hand and certainly get the Senate on record. I am not certain about the House. I hope they will follow through. But in my view it is a step in the right direction. 71

Bob Dole

Unknown
I would be perfectly willing -- I know this is not really germane to the bankruptcy bill, and I do not want to interfere with the managers, so, unless there is some objection, we hope at the appropriate time we can get a time agreement, maybe 1 hour equally divided, if anybody wants to speak in opposition, and then we would be back on the bankruptcy bill. 72

Bob Dole

Unknown
I also want to clarify that, unlike my previous amendment, this is not a sense-of-the-Senate resolution, and I would also like to add the distinguished Senator from New York, [Mr D'Amato], as a cosponsor, and the Senator from Alaska, [Mr. Stevens]. 73

The Presiding Officer

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The PRESIDING OFFICER. 75

Unknown
Mr. LIEBERMAN addressed the Chair. 76

The Presiding Officer

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The PRESIDING OFFICER. 78

Joseph I. Lieberman

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Mr. President, I am proud to join with the distinguished Republican leader, the Senator from Kansas, [Mr. Dole], in cosponsoring this amendment and thank him for his leadership. 80

Joseph I. Lieberman

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This is truly a bipartisan expression of the opinion of Members of the Senate, I believe Members of the House, and I would guess members of the public of the United States of America about one course of action that we should and can take to try to bring an end to the slaughter and aggression in Bosnia and Herzegovina. 81

Joseph I. Lieberman

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Mr. President, in moving to direct the administration to suspend the existing embargo of distribution or sale of weapons to Bosnia, I believe we are also acting, as the Senator from Kansas has said, to support a position that President Clinton has taken now for almost 2 years, which is to be opposed to the embargo, to strengthen his hand in negotiating with our European allies, and in our own voices to send as clear a message as we possibly can to the Bosnian Serb Army and to the Serbian leadership that we have had enough and we are going to match rhetoric with action and, more important, with weapons, effective weapons in the hands of the Bosnian Moslems. 82

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, in the course of the past few years, unfortunately, many of us have come to this floor to speak about the tragedy which has occurred and continues to occur in Bosnia today. Recent events in Gorazde are only the latest indicator of the inability of the world community to muster the moral courage and military might to end the slaughter of innocents which is taking place at the hands of Serbian aggressors. 83

Joseph I. Lieberman

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Mr. President, we find today that Gorazde is, in the words of the U.N. Commander on the ground, Lt. General Rose, "on the verge of a major humanitarian catastrophe." Artillery and mortar shells, regardless of the promises or signatures of the Serbian authorities, continue to fall on the innocent civilians of Gorazde, protecting themselves, as Senator Dole has said, with rifles in the face of Serbian tanks. Every 20 seconds, at different points in this week, death has hurtled its way into masses of civilians whose crime is that they happen to live or have sought refuge in a city the United Nations has declared a safe haven, in which the United Nations, the world community has said, "OK, Bosnian Moslems, there are not a lot of places where you can feel safe in Bosnia but this is one." They have sought refuge in a place where the Serbian aggressors simply have not wanted them to go. 84

Joseph I. Lieberman

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How much more of this outrage are we going to tolerate? How much more of Bosnia needs to be ethnically cleansed? How many more people need to be injured or killed because of their religion before the world stops wringing its hands and takes strong and effective action to put handcuffs on the perpetrators of this evil? 85

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, I know that all of us in this Chamber worry about the possibilities that action which we may take in Bosnia may not be carefully thought out and focused on ends that we seek to achieve reasonably that could lead to increased levels, if we are not careful, of violence but not progress toward resolution of the dispute. But inaction in the case of Serbian aggression has proven time and time again to be a prescription only for more suffering, death, and continued slaughter of innocents in Bosnia. 86

Joseph I. Lieberman

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When the world community finally stood together in the ultimatum issued in Sarajevo, we have seen the Serbs back down and the killing subside. When we make threats which we do not carry out, we have seen only more death and destruction. 87

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
When we use the power that we have in an inspective and limited way, as we have around Gorazde, we see that the Serbs pay no heed to us. What will it take before we realize the value of these lessons the Serbian aggressors continue to teach us? 88

Joseph I. Lieberman

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Mr. President, we must act now at a minimum to give the people of Bosnia the chance they have been pleading for to defend themselves, by lifting this pernicious arms embargo and delivering, in an expeditious fashion, the weapons and equipment that will allow the Bosnian Moslems to defend their homes and their families. No one wants to see this war expanded. But by refusing to give these people the means of defending themselves, the world community condemns them to either death or life -- what is left of it -- in a Serbian-controlled ghetto. 89

Joseph I. Lieberman

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Mr. President, I know that there is a dispute in this Chamber on the related question of whether allied air power should be used more extensively in Bosnia and Serbia to punish the aggressors and bring them, hopefully, to the peace table. I support the wider use of allied air power. I think we should not only -- as the latest United Nations actions propose -- use that air power to try to protect the safe havens, but we should go beyond that and hit command posts, supply lines, and military depots of the Bosnian-Serbian Army and of Serbia, which is supplying them. 90

Joseph I. Lieberman

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Mr. President, some of my colleagues have raised the question: "Can we say with any confidence that this kind of use of allied air power would bring the war to an end? Air power never does." I agree with them. 91

Joseph I. Lieberman

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It takes action on the ground, not action by American soldiers sent to fight on the ground in Bosnia. No one is asking for that, not here in the United States Congress and not for the Bosnian Government. The action on the ground that can be taken, if we help them take it, is by the valiant Bosnian-Moslem soldiers who want to fight, who have fought successfully, but cannot fight with rifles against oncoming tanks. 92

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, these are not easy issues which face the world community. But it is clearly in all of our interests to bring this nightmare to an end. The world was set back twice in this century while aggression went unchecked in Europe, and ultimately paid a much larger price for that early inaction. 93

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, when the United States of America, the strongest Nation in the world, when the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the most effective alliance in the history of the world, military alliance, when the United Nations, look impotent -- and are impotent in the face of criminal actions, lawless action, bullying actions by the Serbian military which is a third- or fourth-rate army -- then the security of every person in Europe, and indeed every person in the United States of America, is on the line. 94

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Here is an action, the lifting of this embargo, that we can take together that will make this a fair fight, and will allow us to again achieve some level of the high moral ground on which the United States has functioned best over our history, and while achieving that ground also serving the strategic interests of the United States and our allies in Europe. 95

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, let me just briefly talk about the legal issues at work here. The embargo, as it exists now, violates the Bosnians' inherent right of self defense as codified in articles 2, 4, and 51 of the U.N. Charter. The right of self defense is a preeminent right of international law, and simply cannot be abridged by actions of the Security Council, such as the one that led to the U.S. executive branch action to impose this embargo, which we would lift by the amendment that Senator Dole and others and I have submitted here today. 96

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Denial of Bosnia's right to acquire weapons, to defend itself against aggression, to prevent the destruction of the state of Bosnia, to prevent genocide against Bosnian nationals, clearly violates Bosnia's international right of self defense. In abridging that right to self defense, the U.N. Security Council undertook to provide for the country's peace and international security. For 2 years, however, the Security Council has not taken measures necessary to maintain that peace and security in Bosnia. Accordingly, the U.N. Charter's provision of Bosnia's right to self defense through the acquisition of these defensive arms becomes preeminent. 97

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
In other words, the arms embargo was imposed as part of a promise by the United Nations that the United Nations would act to maintain the security of Bosnia. The world community has clearly failed to do that. The least we can do is let them defend themselves. Continued application of this arms embargo conflicts with the obligations of the U.N. member states under the United Nations Convention on Genocide. It conflicts with numerous U.N. Security Council resolutions, and U.N. General Assembly Resolution 4842. 98

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, in the particular case of this amendment, it seems clear to me that in accordance with international law, our country, the United States of America, may unilaterally seek to end the embargo by declaring the embargo invalid, refusing to participate in the enforcement of the embargo, and supplying arms to the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. 99

Joseph I. Lieberman

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The declaration of the arms embargo against Bosnia and Herzegovina as unlawful would not result in the invalidity of the economic and arms embargoes against such other States as Serbia and Iraq. It is not even a precedent in doing that, in my opinion. The circumstances are dramatically different. Unlike those States, Bosnia and Herzegovina is under direct military attack sponsored by a neighboring state. As much as 75 percent of Bosnia's territory is occupied by hostile forces seeking its destruction, and partition. Its population is subject to mass killings, rapes, forcible relocation, and other crimes of genocide, and Bosnia simply does not possess a sufficient supply of defensive arms to meet minimal requirements for self defense. 100

Joseph I. Lieberman

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In other words, while the embargoes against Iraq and Serbia are intended to punish aggressor nations, this embargo against weapons for the Bosnians is punishing a victim nation, and making it impossible for the people of that nation to exercise their fundamental right to protect themselves, their families, and their homes. 101

Joseph I. Lieberman

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Again, I thank the Senate Republican leader for his extraordinary leadership in this matter. I am confident that if the Senate stands together on a bipartisan basis to adopt this amendment, we will strengthen the desire and ability of President Clinton to lift the embargo, which has been the policy of this administration for more than a year. We will make it easier for him to convince our allies in Europe to join in lifting the embargo, and hopefully we will send a loud and clear message to the Serbian aggressors that the days of their unfettered, unlimited, unresponded-to aggression are over. 102

Joseph I. Lieberman

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I thank the Chair. I yield the floor. 103

Joseph I. Lieberman

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Mr. DOLE addressed the Chair. 104

The Presiding Officer

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The PRESIDING OFFICER. 106

Bob Dole

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Mr. President, I want to thank again the Senator from Connecticut for his leadership. 108

Bob Dole

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I want to just put in the Record a letter received yesterday from the mayor of Gorazde. 109

Bob Dole

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Let me read the second paragraph. I think we all see these pictures and we sometimes understand. He says: 110

Bob Dole

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In any case, the child was killed. 113

Bob Dole

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I suggest that is a very powerful statement, with the mayor saying, in effect: Kill us, bomb us, to make it easier. 116

Bob Dole

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I ask unanimous consent that the letter be printed in the Record. 117

Bob Dole

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Sometimes we forget, and some people think Serbia must be like the former Soviet Union, a third- or fourth-rate power. Compared to Bosnia, they have about 300 tanks; Bosnia has about 10. It is 10 to 1 everywhere else. That is why they have a big advantage. 133

Bob Dole

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To those who say they are worried about maybe escalating the violence, I suggest that all of the violence is on one side now. There is no opportunity for the poor Bosnian Moslems to defend themselves. Again, I visited with their Vice President yesterday, Mr. Ganic. He understands that we are not going to involve American troops. He would even understand some who say "no airstrikes." But what he cannot understand is why we are not willing to give them a chance to defend themselves. I do not know how you explain that to somebody. The U.N. Charter was pointed out by the Senator from Connecticut and will be pointed out by my colleague from Arizona. 134

Bob Dole

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Mr. McCAIN addressed the Chair. 135

The Presiding Officer

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The PRESIDING OFFICER. 137

John McCain

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Mr. President, I thank my colleague and friend from Kansas, the distinguished Republican leader, for this very important, although perhaps a little late, measure to lift the United States embargo of Bosnia. We need to pass it and Congress needs to pass it and the President needs to act on it. 139

John McCain

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I also find myself in complete agreement with the remarks of my friend from Connecticut, who has been involved in this issue for a very long period of time. 140

John McCain

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Mr. President, I apologize ahead of time to this body if I am a little emotional in my remarks. I just finished meeting with Vice President Ganic, the Vice President of Bosnia. I wish every American could have the opportunity to meet with him and hear of the tragedy -- the preventable tragedy -- that is befalling the citizens of that very tiny nation. 141

John McCain

Unknown
Mr. President, we need to lift the embargo, either with the approval of the United Nations or without it. I do not say that lightly, because we are signatories to a U. N. resolution, which is binding. But the fact is -- and I believe every American should know this -- that the resolution was imposed on the then Yugoslavia, which no longer exists. I repeat, the resolution passed by the U. N. Security Council was applicable to the nation of Yugoslavia, which no longer exists. 142

John McCain

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The U. N. Charter states in article 51: 143

John McCain

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Repeating: 145

John McCain

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Mr. President, the Bosnian Vice President just told me that an ultimatum has been delivered to the Bosnians within Gorazde and that they have about an hour to get their troops within the confines of the city of Gorazde, or else there will be a full-scale attack against Gorazde. I do not know if it is true, but I know that if it is we have a group of people trying to defend themselves with weapons that are only effective at 20 meters. They do not have an antitank weapon. The Vice President of Bosnia said they do not want F-16's or B-1 bombers; they do not even want tanks. They want the ability to defend themselves. It boggles the mind for us to be concerned about a U.N. Security Council resolution which was enacted -- an embargo was enacted -- on a nation that no longer exists. 147

John McCain

Unknown
Mr. President, I am a student of history, and the fact is that this Nation may not have achieved its independence without the help from the sympathetic nation of France, who did not send many troops, but did send people to help, and supplies and equipment and other assistance, in order that we might gain independence in our struggle. 148

John McCain

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As I say, we are clearly in violation of the fundamental principles in the United Nations, in that we have prevented a nation, through this embargo, from defending itself. That needs to be rectified and, frankly, the members of the United Nations should be the ones to do so, so that we, this Nation, will not have to do it by ourselves. 149

John McCain

Unknown
But in all candor, for the President of the United States to say there is a comparison between this and the arms embargo on Iraq is not valid. It is not valid to compare what we are trying to do, to make sure Iraq does not engage in further aggression, with an embargo placed on a nation which no longer exists. 150

John McCain

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Finally, Mr. President, we as a nation were founded upon certain principles. Those principles, we believed, did not apply just to residents of this continent. We believed in those principles, and steadfastly today hold to those principles as expressed in the following words: 151

John McCain

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This embargo is preventing those people from obtaining life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We ought to act now, quickly, and in the name of the principles of this Nation. Let us do it, and do it quickly. 153

John McCain

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I yield the floor. 154

John McCain

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Mr. WARNER addressed the Chair. 155

The Presiding Officer

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The PRESIDING OFFICER. 157

John Warner

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Mr. President, I am hopeful of trying to clarify precisely what is intended by the pending amendment. I have spoken several times in favor of lifting the embargo. I continue to be of that mind. 159

John Warner

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The action of lifting the arms embargo should be taken because the West will be held accountable from this moment on in history for the fact that we have literally tied one arm behind the backs of the Bosnian Moslems and asked them to fight this bitter civil war without adequate weaponry. It is time we released that arm and gave them the option of receiving such weapons as can flow, so that they can do the best they can to defend themselves and hopefully regain the territory that is rightfully theirs. 160

John Warner

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Mr. President, I am doggedly opposed to the United States taking unilateral action in this conflict. If it is the intent of this amendment to urge the President to show stronger leadership, I agree. But if in any way this amendment implies that if our allies do not act, then the United States should act alone and unilaterally, I am opposed. I do not want to see the stamp put on this conflict from this moment forward "Made in the U.S.A." and the U.S.A. becomes responsible from this moment on and our allies step back and say, "You took an action. We did not agree to it. It is your conflict. You supply the arms. You manage it. You take sides." That we should not do. 161

John Warner

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Mr. President, I am hopeful that if one of more of the sponsors of this amendment reappear on the floor, we can enter into a colloquy. I see my good friend from Connecticut. I have expressed my concerns, I say to my good friend. 162

John Warner

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I will yield for the purpose of a question if the Senator wishes to ask it, but I have further remarks. 163

Joseph I. Lieberman

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I thank my friend and colleague from Virginia. I want to respond to a question. Therefore, I will wait until he is finished. Then I will rise personally to explain what I believe the intention of the amendment is. 165

John Warner

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If the Senator wishes to put that in the form of question at this time, I would like to hear it. 167

Joseph I. Lieberman

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I thank the Senator from Virginia for yielding while he retains the floor. 169

Joseph I. Lieberman

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I would ask him whether he would accept this personal understanding of what this amendment intends to do. I speak for myself, and I believe this is the intention of the distinguished Senate Republican leader, although obviously he will return to the floor and speak for himself. 170

Joseph I. Lieberman

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The intention here is for the United States to terminate the embargo currently existing on the transfer of weapons and other defense systems to the people and Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I think implicit in this is our hope that by passing this amendment we will encourage the President to go forward in his effort to negotiate with our allies a joint lifting of the embargo and we will send a message to the Serbian aggressors. 171

Joseph I. Lieberman

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But I do want to make clear to the Senator from Virginia what my understanding is here, which is that if the President is not able to convince our allies to join with us in lifting the embargo this, nonetheless, would have the President terminate the United States embargo unilaterally and that conclusion is based on the premise that we are leaders, that we will set the standard, that, in fact, the way to get the allies to move it may be for us to exercise that leadership, moral and strategic, to avoid exactly the concern that the Senator from Virginia has expressed. 172

Joseph I. Lieberman

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As the Bosnian Moslems suffer, perhaps history will ask where we were. We are saying at least by lifting the arms embargo, the United States of America did what it could at this fateful hour for Bosnia and, in fact, for Europe to help the Bosnian people defend themselves. 173

Joseph I. Lieberman

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So at bottom line the hope is for allied action. But the clear intention of this amendment is also to allow for the United States to lift the embargo unilaterally. 174

John Warner

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I thank my colleague from Connecticut. 176

John Warner

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Mr. President, I am a lawyer; he is a lawyer. We should not be dealing here, especially with this background of strong emotion when all of us are watching this tragedy unfold daily. There is not a Member of this Chamber whose heart does not throb with compassion for the pitiful tragedy we see unfolding of human against human for reasons which are cultural and ethnic. That is not the question. 177

John Warner

Unknown
Let us not as lawyers use the words that the Senator just used: You think it is the intention; you think it is implicit. Let us put it down very, very clearly. This is not an amendable amendment under our rules, a second-degree amendment, or I would seek to amend it. So my hands are tied to try to clarify this. 178

John Warner

Unknown
I would urge the sponsor, if that is the intent, let us put it down with such clarity that the man on the street in hometown U.S.A. can understand it, because this is an important step. If it does not authorize it under this amendment, this is a step toward at least consideration of unilateral involvement of this country in that conflict. 179

John Warner

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This Senator is opposed to unilateral action in that conflict. I think it is incumbent upon the drafters to come over here and make it very clear as to exactly what is meant. 180

John Warner

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I can understand the legalities, and I have just been briefed on how it is questionable as to whether or not the existing U.N. resolutions are legal, how they should not tie the hands of the United States. But let us not get lost in legalities here today. Let us put it down in plain English. 181

John Warner

Unknown
I need only remind my colleague of the tragedy that unfolded in Somalia as the Congress sort of laid back and allowed the Presidents in succession, Presidents Bush and Clinton, to involve our forces in that conflict. And then came the tragic events of October 3 and 4, 1993, in which some 17 were killed and some 70-plus sustained wounds -- a terrible loss. 182

John Warner

Unknown
Congress then began to react to the people of the United States who rose up and said "What is our security interest in that country? What is it we are trying to do?" Both the President and the Congress share equal responsibility for having failed to explain to the American public precisely what those operations were for, precisely what our national security interest was, if any, in Somalia. It was more or less a humanitarian mission. And what happened? This Congress, indeed this very Chamber, led the fight to bring those troops home from Somalia by Christmas. 183

John Warner

Unknown
Finally, in due course, basically behind the doors while the debate was taking place on this floor, cooler heads prevailed, and we allowed the President the right to decide, as Commander in Chief, when our troops should be brought home. And they were brought home, as we know, in March 1994, not Christmas. 184

John Warner

Unknown
It was not a partisan debate. It was a debate between Senators on both sides of the aisle with understandable disagreements. The fact that the President and the Congress had failed to tell the people of the United States why our troops were there, what the risks were in terms of our most precious assets -- and that is the men and women of the Armed Forces who go beyond these shores in the cause of freedom. The result was the Congress came close to overriding the President's authority as Commander in Chief. 185

John Warner

Unknown
I do not want to see that happen here. We have not, in my judgment, sufficiently established for the American people whether or not the United States has a national security interest in the Balkans. I personally do not think there is one there to the degree to justify further U.S. military involvement. 186

John Warner

Unknown
I am opposed to the expansion of the air strike option. It has proven futile. It was tried in good faith. Brave pilots of the United States and our allies flew the strikes. We know the facts. It did not deliver the message. It did not provide the leverage that the diplomats thought it would achieve, and I have grave doubts it will ever do so, even though the President says air strikes should be increased in intensity. That is a side issue to this, but nevertheless it is linked. 187

John Warner

Unknown
I come back to the fundamental issue that the President and Congress have not assessed adequately the extent to which this country does or does not have a national security interest. Humanitarian, yes. National security, a big question mark. I happen to think we do not have a national security interest, certainly not to the level to require the further risk of our troops. 188

John Warner

Unknown
And here we are today about to send a message that we wish to lift the embargo. As I said, I am in favor of it, but I would like to have in this debate -- and I am going to oppose any time agreement until to my satisfaction we have had an adequate debate -- within this debate we have to discuss the tough ramifications of lifting this embargo. 189

John Warner

Unknown
What is the time element within which the Bosnian Moslems can train and learn to use heavy weaponry effectively? What is it we expect the Serbian aggressors to do while this interim time period is taking place? 190

John Warner

Unknown
The Serbs may well start an aggression to take everything they possibly can before the first tank and the first artillery piece arrives. These are questions that I find most troubling. 191

John Warner

Unknown
Yesterday, in a speech when I said we should lift the arms embargo and tried to explain it, I was accused by people who said, you are going to perpetrate genocide. The loss of life will be far greater than we are witnessing today. 192

John Warner

Unknown
What is the timetable that we would hope to achieve for the flow of weapons? How can we guarantee that these weapons will get to the various locations where they can be utilized by the Moslem forces? Many of the land routes are through territory under the control of Croatia. Do we have any indication that they are agreeable to allowing their territory, such territory as they claim, to be utilized for the transfer of these weapons? 193

John Warner

Unknown
So I say to my friends: Leadership, yes. I urge our President to show greater leadership, greater strength, in talking with our allies, and maybe there is a plan that all can agree on. 194

John Warner

Unknown
What is the likelihood that the lifting of the embargo will succeed as hoped for? What will we do as a nation in concert with our allies if the lifting of the embargo fails? Are we to take another step? 195

John Warner

Unknown
Each time we take a step over here -- and regrettably we have taken a lot of false starts and steps forward and quickly steps back -- there has not been an expression of opinion by the President, the Secretaries of State and Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Their has not been a consistent message from our leadership on these tough issues in Bosnia. And, as a result, how do we know that lives have not been lost of late because of the failure of a clear, concise and unified U.S. policy? 196

John Warner

Unknown
I do not want to see this body fall into the same trap to send a message which will be heard around the world -- the Senate pronounces that the embargo should be lifted -- until we know exactly what the consequences of lifting it are, how it would be implemented and what is the opinion of the American people about what should or should not be done to rectify this tragic situation in Bosnia. 197

John Warner

Unknown
Finally, I ask of my good friend from Connecticut, how do we avoid a repetition of the tragic circumstances that took place in Somalia, where we went with the best of intentions and sacrificed the lives of our men and women in the Armed Forces, and saw our President's policy nearly reversed by this Congress in response to the outcry of the American people from coast to coast in this country? 198

John Warner

Unknown
I ask that question to my friend. 199

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. LIEBERMAN addressed the Chair. 200

The Presiding Officer

Unknown
The PRESIDING OFFICER. 202

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
I thank the Chair. 204

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
I note the presence of the distinguished chairman of the Committee on Foreign Relations and my colleague from Massachusetts. I would indicate to them I intend to respond briefly and yield the floor to them. The Senator from Virginia has raised some serious questions. 205

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
May I say that it is the intention of the sponsors of this amendment to speak with just the clarity and conviction that the Senator has found absent in other statements and other leadership. 206

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, I say that you have not done that when you say to me it the intention of the amendment and you think it is implicit in the amendment. What do you have expressly in the language that we and every American can understand? 208

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, we have a disagreement, the Senator from Virginia and I. 210

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
The language of this amendment is extremely clear. Let me state it to him exactly. I believe my colleague from Virginia may not support the language of the amendment. 211

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
The amendment seeks to make clear that the United States shall unilaterally lift the embargo on the distribution or sale of weapons to the Government of Bosnia. If I indicated any tentativeness earlier, it was only on the question, which I believe is shared by the cosponsors, that it would be our understanding that the President would seek to convince our allies to join with us in that. 212

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
But I say to the Senator from Virginia, there is a clear intention here -- and by his statement, I understand he does not support it -- which is that this is a moment, as he has said, of moral imperative. And one response to that moral imperative that I hope we can agree on is to at least have the United States, acting unilaterally if necessary, not to deny the people of Bosnia the arms with which they could defend themselves. 213

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
We may disagree on the question of air strikes. I do not think we disagree on the question of whether American troops should be sent to serve on the ground in Bosnia. I have not heard anybody say that, and I certainly would not support that. 214

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
In fact, the last paragraph of this amendment, offered by the Senate Republican leader, makes clear: "Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as authorization for deployment of U.S. forces in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina for any purpose." Second, the Senator from Virginia raises the question about Somalia. This is a very different circumstance, certainly in terms of what the United States would do if this amendment passes. We are not talking here about sending American soldiers to Bosnia, as we did in Somalia. We are talking about sending American weapons to the Bosnian fighters so they could use them to defend themselves. 215

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
I agree with the concerns -- and I admired the Senator from Virginia when he stated them at the time of the crisis in Somalia -- that public opinion, that Members of Congress not tie the hands of the Commander in Chief in terms of the deployment of American personnel, forcing the Commander in Chief to bring back American troops at a premature date. That was worked out. 216

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
In my opinion, we are not dealing here, in the lifting of this embargo, with the President's powers under the Constitution as Commander in Chief -- no personnel involved; no troops. We are dealing here with what I would view as the foreign policy powers of the U. S. Congress. 217

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
What we are doing here, in asking that the embargo be lifted, is comparable, for instance, to what we do when we say in our foreign aid appropriations bills, in our Foreign Military Assistance Act, and earmarking as we often do: Congress directs that x dollars or x systems be sent to y foreign nation for the purpose of protecting themselves. It is quite comparable -- we may agree or disagree with the recommendation made earlier this week by my colleague from Connecticut and several others, directing the United States to increase sanctions against the Government of Haiti. 218

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, will the Senator respond to this, then? 220

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
I will. 222

John Warner

Unknown
You have answered, No. 1, you interpret this as saying the United States shall unilaterally lift whatever embargo we have. 224

John Warner

Unknown
I ask my good friend, does that not send a signal to the people tragically suffering, the Muslims: We have lifted it, and it implies we, then, will send some weapons? Is that not a logical -- 225

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Through the Chair to my friend from Virginia, I say the Senator's statement is absolutely right. That is a logical conclusion. And not only is it a logical conclusion, it is the intention of the sponsors of the amendment. And it is the desire of the duly elected leadership of Bosnia. 227

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
The Senator said earlier he was concerned that the sending of weapons might either raise the hopes of the people there unfairly or contribute to more deaths. Earlier the Senate Republican leader read a letter from the mayor of Gorazde saying, astoundingly, movingly, that he felt the people of Gorazde would rather U.S. planes bombed Gorazde in an effort to force out the Serbian aggressors than have the people of Gorazde die defenseless at the hands of those Serbian aggressors. So their desire is clear. 228

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, let me then qualify. My colleague interprets the amendment as saying legally we, the United States, will lift our embargo. And you agree with my observation this sends a message -- again using your word -- it implies that the United States is saying we will be sending arms. 230

John Warner

Unknown
I ask my friend, if our allies, mainly Great Britain and France, who have at risk their own people in the UNPROFOR forces in Bosnia today, those forces, commingled geographically with combatants on all sides, be they Serbs, Moslems or Croatians, those UNPROFOR troops right in the crossfire of this combat -- supposing Great Britain and France say, "You shall not, United States, send arms in. We object to those arms going in." Could that not happen? 231

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Will my colleague yield? 233

John Warner

Unknown
Let me just finish the question and I will be glad to yield the floor. 235

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I just wanted to add to the question, if I may? 237

John Warner

Unknown
Let us get this one answered. My colleague can answer it. Then I will be happy to receive his question. 239

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
It is quite possible, in response to the Senator from Virginia, that our allies in Europe might give the response that he has given. But I would say this. The suffering of the defenseless victims in Bosnia sounds louder to me, and I think to the sponsors of this amendment, than the possible expression of opposition by our allies in Europe. My hope is that they will decide to join us. 241

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Again, I say to my colleague, I have spoken to the Prime Minister of Bosnia, as many us have here, and the Vice President. They say, "If you gave us a choice of whether to have the ability to receive arms to defend ourselves or to keep the British and French peacekeepers in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the choice for us is an easy one. We would say, "Thank you," to the British and French peacekeepers, and wish them farewell, in order to receive the weapons with which to defend our families and our homes. 242

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, I think I received a third answer, and that is that we go ahead, irrespective of whether Britain or France agree. I say that is unilateral intervention by the United States. That stamps this conflict, then, "Made in the U.S.A." And we become responsible, not only for the further loss of life by the Serbian and Moslems and Croatians that may die, but also the UNPROFOR forces of many nations, who are there bravely trying to provide assistance to those who are suffering. 244

John Warner

Unknown
This is a very serious risk, Senator. I think before this body acts on this resolution, we must have a clear understanding of what reaction would come from our allies. I once again say I am unalterably opposed to unilateral action or even sending a signal we intend to act unilaterally. I urge the President to use the most forceful of leadership. I will support the lifting of the embargo, providing it is done in unity with our allies. 245

John Warner

Unknown
One further comment. Yes, I oppose the introduction of United States ground forces in Bosnia. But let us not overlook the fact that we have United States pilots today fighting in the skies over Bosnia. As far as I am concerned, an airman is just as valuable as one of our ground troops, and we should not dismiss the risk that they are taking, the risk that they could be shot down, the risk that they could become prisoners along with the UNPROFOR forces. They will be taken prisoner the moment the signal is sent. They will be taken as hostages if this embargo is lifted. 246

John Warner

Unknown
I say to my friend, yesterday in the Armed Services Committee we had an Air Force officer, now a CINC, General Horner, who is now in charge of our Strategic Command. He was our air commander in the Persian Gulf war, recognized for brilliantly executing, under General Schwarzkopf, the air part of that conflict. I asked the General, "How many missions did the allied forces fly in the gulf operation?" "Senator, you would be astonished. In a period of 6 weeks, January to February 1991, 100,000 missions were flown." It is clear that the air war was a critical part of the vicory in that conflict for the coalition forces. Even though there were 100,000 sorties, this was not decisive and it took several hundred thousand ground troops to secure victory. 247

John Warner

Unknown
This use of air power in the past weeks in Bosnia, a mission here, a mission there, weather problems that we did not have in the gulf operation, such missions will never succeed. 248

John Warner

Unknown
I am concerned we are raising false hopes, both the President by saying he is going to augment the use of air power and this Chamber by saying we are going to lift the embargo. We have not, in my judgment, sufficiently thought through all of the ramifications. 249

John Warner

Unknown
I lastly ask my question to my friend. Then I will yield the floor to others because I am anxious to hear from them, as we all are. 250

John Warner

Unknown
If we send forth this message that we are going to lift the embargo unilaterally, what is the likelihood of the Serbian forces then beginning to take more and more hostages from the UNPROFOR, which are right there as we speak today, trying to fulfill humanitarian missions? 251

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, the question of the Senator from Virginia is a fair one. He asked earlier about what reaction the Bosnian Serbian army might take in response to the lifting of the arms embargo against the Bosnians. I would say there is not much worse. Certainly from the point of view of the Bosnian Moslems, 200,000 people killed in the last 2 years, 2 million refugees forced out of their homes, there is not much worse that could happen to these people than has happened to them while the rest of the world effectively stood by and let them suffer defenseless. 253

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
So there are no guarantees of how anyone will act in a circumstance of this kind. But one thing we know is that our inaction up until this time has been a failure. It has failed to impede the progress of aggression. It has failed to stop the genocidal acts that are occurring. 254

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
I must say, though some of the questions the Senator from Virginia is asking are obviously quite important and fair, I am disappointed that he would oppose the unilateral lifting of the arms embargo by the United States, because I had hoped that on that ground -- I understand the dispute about the use of air power. Although I must say the reference to the gulf war is a good one, we have not really used allied air power here. 255

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
We have tweaked their noses and not really brought the force that we have to bear in a way that would hurt the aggressors, the Bosnian Serbs and those who support them and supply them in Serbia. 256

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
The Senator from Virginia has said he is concerned that lifting the embargo unilaterally would put a "Made in the U.S.A." stamp on this conflict. 257

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
What it would do, responding to something the Senator from Virginia said at the outset of his remarks, would be to put a stamp that said at least in this way the people of the United States of America did not stand by, did not equivocate. We at least sent weapons to the victims of aggression and genocidal acts with which they could defend themselves. 258

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
That is a stamp that is consistent with the best moral traditions of our people and our foreign policy, and a stamp which history, I think, will applaud and not criticize. 259

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
So I hope we can find a way to have unanimous, or at least substantial, support in this Chamber for the unilateral lifting of the arms embargo. It is an act of leadership in a conflict in a world that is sorely lacking. 260

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
I say, finally, the Senator from Virginia has had a proud and long and distinguished record in strengthening the rule of order and law in the world in supporting the development of strength of the U. S. military to protect our national security and world order. 261

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
I know that he shares my feeling that when we are in a situation where, as Senator Dole, the Senate Republican leader, said earlier, a third- or fourth-rate military power can intimidate and make the United States, the world's superpower, and NATO, the greatest military alliance in the history of the world, look timid and weak, then the message to Europe, to other aggressors there and throughout the world, to the leadership of North Korea, for instance, Iraq, Libya -- wherever we may have enemies -- that message is the wrong message we want to send. 262

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
We need to find a resolve to a complicated situation in Bosnia, obviously. But to me there is a clear aggressor, and that is the Bosnian Serb army. There is a clear party that is guilty of genocidal acts. That is the Bosnian Serbs. We have a strategic interest and a moral obligation, at least, to stand together and say we will give these people the arms with which to defend themselves. 263

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, in closing, would the drafters of this amendment consider amending it in some manner to reflect that while the United States may have a legal right under international law to lift such embargo as this country is responsible for, we will do that, but we will not act unilaterally in this conflict in opposition to our allies; that we will only take such further actions in concert with our allies? Could that be made a part of this amendment with such clarity as we can all then have the feeling that we will not see this conflict suddenly transform into one for which the United States of America is primarily responsible? 265

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, there would never be an occasion on which this Senator would hesitate to sit down and discuss and try to work out an arrangement that could be supported mutually with the Senator from Virginia. I have enormous respect for him. But I must say I feel very strongly -- and I speak only for myself and not the Senate Republican leader or the other sponsors of this amendment -- that this is a moment in which this body should speak with clarity and eliminate and avoid conditions and qualifications, and to say very clearly that we intend to unilaterally lift the arms embargo so we can supply weapons to the Moslems in Bosnia to allow them to defend themselves. 267

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
I say that with the understanding that the President will continue to negotiate with our allies, and I hope that our allies will join us. But, most of all, what I want this amendment to do is to provide help for the Bosnian Moslems and put a little bit of fear into the Bosnian Serb aggressors, which they have not had until this time. 268

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
The Senator from Virginia asked what the impact on the Bosnian Serbs and others in Bosnia will be as a result of passage of this amendment. Right now the Bosnian Serbs are acting like thugs in a lawless territory, firing at civilians, ignoring a declaration of safe havens where the Moslems can run -- leaving the homes they were forced out of only because of their religion -- going into Sarajevo where we had an agreement and taking antiaircraft weapons out of a depot that the United Nations was storing them in, acting with such pernicious disregard for promises they made that even their historic allies in Russia have left the field of negotiations feeling they could not trust them. 269

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Mr. President, I say to my friend from Virginia, there is nothing more that we could do here that would embolden the Serbs to do anything worse than they have done now. They are animals running without regard to the law through what used to be a civilized and peaceful land. 270

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, I will remind my good friend from Connecticut that I ran a calculation. There are 36 conflicts going on in the world today. Most of them civil wars, cultural wars, religious wars. Yes, we are appalled about the tragedy unfolding before our eyes in Bosnia. Yes, we have compassion. But this Senator draws the line. I am speaking today for the future involvement, the future credibility of this country and the future risk of lives of the men and women in the Armed Forces that wear our uniform. We cannot become militarily involved in every humanitarian tragedy in the world. 272

John Warner

Unknown
Madam President, does the Senator from Massachusetts wish to address a question to the Senator from Virginia? 273

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Mr. President, I had a question that I wanted to follow up with the Senator. Is the Senator willing to yield the floor? 275

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, I would like to retain the floor and entertain his question, as I can. 277

John Warner

Unknown
(Ms. MOSELEY-BRAUN assumed the chair.) 278

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Madam President, I also have some statements I want to make with respect to this. 280

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I join with the Senator from Virginia in some respects, and I join with the Senator from Connecticut in others. But I want to make it clear, along with the Senator from Virginia, that this amendment, in its current form, I believe, has flaws. 281

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I would like to lift the embargo under the appropriate procedures and with an appropriate process. But the Senator from Virginia is absolutely correct in raising certain questions and in asking the Senate to make a judgment about whether or not this is the best method of accomplishing the goal that the Senator from Connecticut seeks. 282

John F. Kerry

Unknown
For instance, the language of the second-degree amendment -- I regret that this is second degreed in the way it is. This is far too important an issue to come to the floor and plunk down in front of us a second- degree, prearranged amendment that may even have flaws with respect to the intentions of the proponents, but which does not allow us in the U.S. Senate to flesh out a vital foreign policy issue. 283

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Let me be very specific, Madam President. There is a unilateralness to this which the Senator seeks, I understand, in terms of the message we want to send. But the messages that are also sent with respect to our allies and current negotiating efforts the administration is in the middle of, could conceivably be extraordinarily damaging. 284

John F. Kerry

Unknown
It seems to me that the amendment would be a much stronger amendment if there at least was a 2- or 3-day or an immediate effort embraced in the amendment to respect the multilateral manner by which we engaged in this, and to respect the multilateral manner in which we will most likely finally reach some kind of resolution. 285

John F. Kerry

Unknown
If we just run off in a unilateral fashion, to be specific, what happens to the current fragile cooperation of Russia? Do we then create a new threat to Boris Yeltsin and the capacity of the Russians to cooperate, which invites their need politically to respond to the Serbs in a way that deprives us of some of the very response of air attacks that the President is now contemplating? 286

John F. Kerry

Unknown
We would, in fact, make matters worse for the people of Gorazde if all of a sudden the Russians were to say, "Well, in view of this unilateral action, we are no longer prepared to support the air attacks because you have clearly entered on the side of one of the protagonists in a manner that is not called for by the current dynamics of the negotiating process." So I would respectfully say I do not know the answer for certain to that, but I do know that the Senate should not vote on this until we have some understanding of what those implications are. I suspect the answer is that the Russians would view this with grave implications, that the Russians would see this as a threat to their relationship in the region, and that it would alter the balance of power in the immediate circumstances that would make matters worse, not better. 287

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Now, I do not think the Senator from Connecticut wants that to happen. Now, I wish to preface my statement by saying I wish to lift -- I wanted to lift the embargo a year ago, and the timing was correct a year ago. The timing was correct for a lot of things that we chose not to do a year ago including, I might add, what the Senator from Virginia has said, which is to bring the American people into some consensus about what is really at stake in the region and what is not at stake in the region. 288

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I might add, however, I happen to disagree with the Senator from Virginia that there has not been at least some effort to do that. Secretary of State Christopher, in February a year ago, said that "the continuing destruction of the new U.N. member state challenges the principle that internationally recognized borders should not be altered by force." He said, "The conflict may not have natural borders, but it threatens to spill over into new regions." He said, "It could become a greater Balkan war." He said, "The river of fleeing refugees, which has reached the hundreds of thousands, would swell and the political and economic fiber of Europe, as demonstrated by the former Communist States, would be further strained." So it is not as if there has been no further effort to try to describe this. The fact is though we find ourselves in a situation where there is not a clear understanding by the American people, where there is not a clear definition of the progression we might be willing to go down in an effort to assert our interests. 289

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Now, I think yesterday the President of the United States made it very, very clear. It is the policy of this country to not only try to protect Gorazde but to try to extend the concept of the safe zones in the areas of dispute. 290

John F. Kerry

Unknown
It seems to me that that is a clear definition of a policy, and that is very much in play right now. I think we should put it on a very short fuse, Madam President. I think that we ought to look at this resolution and any effort to lift the embargo unilaterally in the light of a very short fuse. And I would respectfully submit to my colleagues that if we take the time to fashion a resolution that creates a sufficient process for the President to be able to carry out the Presidential prerogatives that he exercised yesterday and we link the lifting of an embargo to the failure of the Bosnian Serbs to come to the table or to the failure of the air power to resolve some of these questions, then we will do far more to induce their behavior while simultaneously maintaining the integrity of the message the Senator wants to send and of the common sense, if you will, of the United States Senate. 291

John F. Kerry

Unknown
So I think this needs to be fleshed out more. I ask my colleague from Connecticut, is he prepared to end the humanitarian effort in Bosnia? Because that may be one of the implications of this amendment. 292

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
Madam President, I say in response to the question of the Senator from Massachusetts, this Senator does not feel that would be one of the implications, one of the results of the passage of this amendment. 294

John F. Kerry

Unknown
My colleague from Connecticut says he does not think it would be. Let me say to my friend that the Bosnian Serbs have made it clear that if the United States is perceived as somehow entering the conflict of this particular moment in a way that in the current dynamics is unilateral, they may decide they are going to take 150 or 200 UNPROFOR people hostage as a consequence. 296

Joseph I. Lieberman

Unknown
They have already done that. 298

John F. Kerry

Unknown
But they have been releasing them in the last few days, Madam President. We seem to have made the point and we seem to be breaking through in the last few days. 300

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Now, I cannot deny there is a perfidy that is unacceptable in their actions in Gorazde. It is unacceptable, beyond anybody's standards, to lob mortars and direct artillery shells straight into a hospital. And that is why I think the President should put the bombing on a much shorter fuse. But we should think very carefully about at the very moment that the President is saying I am prepared to bomb, we want to simultaneously take the step unilaterally, unilaterally, to have a greater impact on this. 301

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Now, I would say to my colleague, if the United States is truly prepared -- and I hope it is and I believe it is -- to follow through on this threat of air strikes, and if we are prepared to stay the course, I respectfully submit and I believe that we will change Bosnian Serb behavior. We may not. But if we make it clear that we are responding specifically to their perfidy, specifically to their inhumanity, specifically to their willingness to attack innocent women and children, and to defy the United Nations and NATO and the will of the civilized world, I believe we have the high moral ground and the world will understand our bombings. 302

John F. Kerry

Unknown
But I believe that if we moved unilaterally, without even the consent of our allies, who have the troops on the ground -- it is their risk on the ground today, not ours -- we would be inviting an irresponsible international reaction. 303

John F. Kerry

Unknown
What is wrong with having an amendment, which I would vote for, that suggests the condition precedent to our lifting the embargo, on very short order, I might add. I respectfully submit to my colleague that if we set up a continuum of conditions precedent to our actions and vote that we will lift the embargo in the event that the Bosnian Serbs do not respond, we will do far more to elicit a response than if we ask ourselves to unilaterally lift this embargo. 304

John F. Kerry

Unknown
So I just think this needs to be fleshed out. And I regret that this is in a second-degree form, because I think we could come up with an amendment that is strong, that is sensible, that reflects an important message which the Senate ought to send. 305

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I wish to make it clear, the Senator from Connecticut is absolutely correct to come to the floor with a sense of outrage. He is 100 percent, together with the minority leader, appropriately suggesting that the United States owes the world leadership on this. We do. We do owe the world leadership on this. And we have been, frankly, going on a slippery rock, from rock to rock, into deeper and deeper water, without a clarification of what we are going to do once we are swimming, if we know how to swim. 306

John F. Kerry

Unknown
So I say respectfully that we have an obligation here to approach this as the greatest deliberative body ought to, which is sensibly and slowly and carefully. I am not suggesting we should not vote. I would like to have an amendment I could vote for, and I hope my colleague and the minority leader will help us, together with the Senator from Virginia, to come together on this in a way to fashion a sensible foreign policy message. And I join my colleague -- I have to go to a hearing. I would stay here and debate this at great length. But I am not going to agree to a time agreement until such time as we have really tried to flesh out these issues further. There is a great deal more to be said. I am not going to say it now, but I certainly want to be able to reserve the right to do that. 307

John Warner

Unknown
Madam President, I thank my colleague from Massachusetts. While we may have differences on the use of air power, I initiated this debate along the framework of the question as to what happens under this amendment on the unilateral question. I think the Senator and I have a meeting of the minds. I hope others will join and that we can work with the distinguished Republican leader and his distinguished group of cosponsors here to fashion an amendment which we can all agree to and get behind. 309

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Madam President, I appreciate that. I want to work with my colleague to do that, and I hope we can work with the Senator from Connecticut. 311

John F. Kerry

Unknown
On the air issue, the Senator is as versed, if not more so, as the former ranking member of the Armed Services Committee, and more importantly as the former Secretary of the Navy. I understand the limits of air power. But I also understand the limits of the Serbs. And I cannot disagree with the comments of the Senator from Kansas when he talks about this power. 312

John F. Kerry

Unknown
For heaven's sake, the United States of America spent 40 years building up a military that was supposed to be able to fight not just the former Yugoslavia but every single one of the Warsaw Pact nations and the Soviet Union. Here we are faced with one small partition of one country of the Warsaw Pact, and we are kind of putzing around as to how much message we are willing to send to make the price for the Serbs high. Yesterday, the President made that clear. I have no illusions. 313

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Might you tighten resolve? Yes. You might. Could it conceivably turn then to say we are going to prolong this? Yes. It might. But the alternative is to do nothing, the alternative is to admit failure, and the alternative is to accept that the United Nations and the NATO are impotent in the face of any kind of threat. The alternative is to invite demagogs and despots in the rest of the world to believe they can challenge that power with impunity and not with a price. 314

John F. Kerry

Unknown
My own belief is that if the United States of America were more clear and more determined to accept the risks and the limits of what is involved in pressing the air strikes, the Serbs might have a different message in that chess game that they were so prominently displaying in the New York Times the other day. 315

John Warner

Unknown
Madam President, let me say to my friend before he departs the floor, let us examine the use of air power in the Persian Gulf. I mentioned before the Senator arrived that there were 100,000 sorties flown in a period of 6 weeks during that conflict. There was a clear demarcation -- the boundary of Iraq. Once we went behind that boundary, we knew the enemy, but even there was collateral damage to civilians. 317

John Warner

Unknown
We had the best of weather conditions; the best of air bases. We had carefully marshaled all the assets for a major conflict before we initiated that conflict. 318

John Warner

Unknown
The situation in Bosnia is starkly different. You have difficult terrain in which to spot targets and operate. You have very difficult weather conditions. You have the Serbian forces, which are designated as the enemy, colocated but a mile or less from civilian populations, and a mile or less from UNPROFOR forces. We cannot release the air power, or even a fraction of it, that we used in the gulf in this conflict. And we should not mislead the American people that air power can turn this battle. 319

John Warner

Unknown
I say to my good friend from Massachusetts that sometimes leadership is more difficult to exercise by way of restraint than by using military force. 320

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Madam President, let me just say to my friend that everything he said is correct. Everything he said is correct. I do not argue with it. His description of the limitations in the gulf is accurate, and he is as knowledgeable as anybody in the U.S. Senate. 322

John F. Kerry

Unknown
But here is I think respectfully the distinction. While we may be able to specifically turn the battle at Gorazde by pointing the air strikes at Gorazde, the Serbs have an enormous number of assets in other locations that we are aware of that are not near civilians and that are not part of that battle. I believe that because they are defying their own word, because they are going against their own agreement, because they are violating their own understanding -- and the world understands that -- and because they are engaging in behavior that is contrary to the rules of warfare, the world will understand if the NATO and U.N. attack targets that are not in the area of Gorazde or of civilians, but which make the price higher. 323

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I admit to the Senator that may or may not work. I rather suspect that if the Serbs saw a united determination of the world to make it clear that the United Nations word is not going to be flaunted and that the will of civilized people is not going to be trampled on, I would suspect that they would understand this is a serious measure, that it will cost them dearly, and that it will do what it did at Sarajevo. It worked at Sarajevo. Those who are clamoring for leadership should respect the fact that this President of the United States and his team brought about the events of Sarajevo, and they also brought about the peace between the Croats and the Moslems. 324

John F. Kerry

Unknown
So I would respectfully suggest things are happening. I think that the use of that air power is worth the effort recognizing all of the limitations. 325

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I would also say that with respect to this particular resolution that I would be much more comfortable if this resolution made it far clearer that we are doing this in response to the specific Bosnian Serb perfidy and to their behavior, that we are respecting the neutrality, if you will, and that this is really not entering into the effort. It is in response to their actions and would only occur if those actions continued. 326

John F. Kerry

Unknown
That is a far more sensible way to approach the choices that are presented to us, far more responsible way to approach it than otherwise. 327

John F. Kerry

Unknown
(Mr. KERREY assumed the chair.) 328

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, I would ask one more question. I observe the presence of the distinguished chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, and I will momentarily yield. 330

John Warner

Unknown
I ask my friend from Massachusetts, if that is the strategy to be used, this air power and these significant attacks on targets, supply depots, avenues of approach, which are clearly in Serbian territory, I presume that territory is Bosnian Serbian territory and not Serbia proper. 331

John Warner

Unknown
Would the Senator clarify that? 332

John F. Kerry

Unknown
That would be clearly the first order of priority. But may I say to the Senator, if the behavior continued -- and here you have obviously an extraordinarily difficult issue to work out with the Russians -- but you would have to make it clear that that was an option on the list. Obviously, the Russians play significantly in this. But a first order of priority is Bosnia. 334

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, I ask of my distinguished colleague, with that use of force it would clearly be perceived that we, the United States, together with our allies who presumably would participate, and I assume we are talking about NATO air strikes, not just U.S. air strikes -- -- 336

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I am. 338

John Warner

Unknown
Then we have chosen sides in this conflict. Let there be no doubt we have chosen sides. 340

John Warner

Unknown
I wish to ask this question: Clearly defined, are we doing this in response to compassion and emotion, or are we doing it as a part of the NATO force consistent with a clear national security interest in Bosnia? I suggest it is a result of emotion and compassion, and there is an absence of a clear national security interest. 341

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I think that the Senator from Virginia has asked one of the best questions, and it has been long lacking from the debate and the framework within which we are trying to approach this issue. 343

John F. Kerry

Unknown
It is the question what should have been debated in this country, and what should have been set out for this country a long time ago is a clearer discussion of what the progression is here. What is the slippery slide? We have been dancing around. We have been sort of sending the message that we want to be militarily strong, that we are prepared to use force. But is the United States prepared to use force? Are we prepared to see body bags coming back and arriving at Dover, DE? That is what the Senator is asking. What is at stake here? 344

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I respectfully submit to the Senator from Virginia that the answer is there is a vital national security interest. How vital? Is it as vital as others that we have faced more recently in other parts of the world where we have chosen to send troops and fight wars? The answer is "no." But does it rise to the level of legitimate national security interest? The answer to that is absolutely yes. We have a vital national security interest in the stability of Europe. We have a vital national security interest in the ability of the United Nations to not have its word flaunted, to not have its intent simply trampled on by thugs and war criminals. 345

John F. Kerry

Unknown
We have a vital national interest in not having this spill over in Macedonia and Kosovo. We have a vital national interest, I believe, in having our own leadership mean something in the world, so that we do not wind up inviting other people in other parts of the world to put us to the test like Francois and Cedras in Haiti, who scoffed their noses at us only days after we moved out of Somalia. That is what is at stake here, and I think that is important. 346

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I know the Senator, who is a passionate advocate of an adequate defense for this country, and who understands the stakes of foreign policy, would share with me a view that the word of the United States and the word of the United Nations and the word of NATO and their ability to effect their power is important in future conflicts and in future negotiations. That is an interest. 347

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Is it a vital interest that predicates that we should put American troops on the ground? No, I do not believe that; not unless there is a peace of some kind and we are in peacekeeping, not peacemaking, component. I do believe fervently that air power here is one of the tools that we have available to us, commensurate with a level of national interest that I have just described. If the national interests were greater, then we would talk about putting marines in. If the national interests were even greater, we might talk about the kind of confrontation we had in Cuba. It clearly is not that. 348

John F. Kerry

Unknown
The problem is that we have never spent enough time defining the interests and measuring the levels of response. The Serbs understand that, so they are operating with a perception that when push comes to shove, the United States will back down. They were given succor the other day and an ability to believe that -- I mean, in the total of all of this war with ethnic cleansing, with rape as a calculated tool of war, with the most extraordinary bombardment and movement of civilians, we have dropped, through NATO and the United Nations, a total of six bombs, and three did not go off. 349

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, I must say that, to me, that did not establish a national security interest. I do not believe we have a national security interest. But your definition that it is there to the extent we use air power but is not there to the extent we use ground forces, that is a fallacious, I say to my good friend, formula. I think a U.S. airman's life, a downed pilot, captured on the ground, is just as valuable as any marine that marches in. So I cannot distinguished between air and ground in terms of the level of our national security interest. 351

John Warner

Unknown
I disagree with my good friend that this conflict could destroy U.S. credibility in Europe. We have stood side by side with the Europeans in two major world wars. The Europeans have looked to us for leadership every year since World War II. We have given it time and time again in the form of our support for NATO. Our record is clear. 352

John Warner

Unknown
And I do not think this conflict, certainly in the last 2 years, has come to the point where Europe is about to fall, convulse, implode, or otherwise destruct, as a consequence of this tragic conflict. You say "casualties." There were tens of thousands of casualties over the past several weeks in Rwanda alone. That is life. There are 36 conflicts in the world today of civil war proportions, with life being lost. 353

John Warner

Unknown
We cannot say that because the United States is not involved in those many conflicts, that our credibility is weakened. I think it is wrong in this debate to go back and examine from this day backward, what went wrong and what went right. We will have to do that another day. Let us, on this day, not only thank the Republican leader and his cosponsors for initiating this debate, which is long overdue, but let us address from this day forward what the U.S. interest is and what we should do. 354

John Warner

Unknown
I say that I am yet unconvinced that we have a national security interest which justifies the use of our military -- be it air, or otherwise -- as recommended by the Senator from Massachusetts and the President. I think that would be a mistake, and it would end up that this conflict is stamped "made in the U.S.A." I yield the floor. 355

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Mr. President, if I could answer my friend. No one has suggested putting a different level of values on the lives. No one has suggested that. Obviously, the airman's life is at risk. For Heaven's sake, there are troops of France, and troops of a host of other countries, that are there now, and we ought to care as much about them, frankly, because they are part of our effort. They are doing our bidding, in essence, almost our mercenaries, because we are willing to pay for it, but we are not willing to put the troops on the ground. 357

John F. Kerry

Unknown
These troops need this air support in order to be protected. That is what Lieutenant General Rose decided, and we have given him the command. I know my friend respects the notion of letting command make a decision. I say also that those who put on the uniform are prepared to accept certain kinds of risks, and there are different gradations of what a nation is willing to do in certain kinds of situations. 358

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Our friend in the chair, who was a Navy Seal, knows full well that there are different kinds of missions that you can get sent on. And sometimes they will say to you when you go out on a mission: You are on your own; you are not going to have cover on this one, or we are not going to be able to come in and pick you up. You guys have to go get off there yourselves. 359

John F. Kerry

Unknown
This is the risk you take. Usually, American soldiers have had the courage and gumption to raise their hands and say, "We will take that risk." It does not mean we do not value them. We make judgments every single day in foreign policy, and in the conduct of our military affairs, about what we are willing to put in or not put into this. This is the whole problem with this issue. Let me finish here. The problem with the whole issue is that the Nation has not yet gone down the slippery side. We want to not have the United Nations humiliated, or NATO humiliated, and we want to not walk away from our humanitarian responsibilities; but, at the same time, we have not really said what we are willing to do to maintain all of those desires, or to achieve those desires. 360

John F. Kerry

Unknown
I am simply saying to you that it is my belief that in this effort you would not abandon anybody, but you would bring the power to bear in the effort to try to seek the resolution. I believe if the Serbs thought we were serious, as they did at Sarajevo, we could achieve these safe havens and might get back to the negotiating table. 361

John Warner

Unknown
Mr. President, I share the concerns -- and I have said it in this debate in the last hour -- of the French and the British about their forces on the ground in Bosnia. They were put in there to carry out a humanitarian mission. They were equipped with such military equipment as was necessary to protect themselves, not to become an aggressive force and work in conjunction with NATO air power to repulse the Serbs. If you leave the impression that if we add air power to what they now have on the grounds, this could turn the tide in that conflict, you have made a very fallacious military argument. 363

John F. Kerry

Unknown
Mr. President, in answer to my colleague, I think there are limits to it. I accept the limits. I accept the possibilities of failure that might go with the limits to it. But as the Senator from Kansas said, we have a responsibility here to try and show some leadership and to take a certain level of risk, if you will. There is a level of risk in not doing that. The level of risk in not doing that is that you invite all of the repercussions I articulated, by making paper tigers out of these institutions that they have struggled to give power to. 365

John F. Kerry

Unknown